Demand Gen Chat
Demand Gen Chat

Season 3, Episode 10 · 4 months ago

Leading with edutainment, fixing the B2B buying process & balancing demand capture and creation | Tim Davidson @ Directive

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this new episode of Demand Gen Chat, I spoke with Tim Davidson, Senior Director of Digital Marketing at Directive. Tim started his time at Directive working with clients at software companies looking to source more pipeline and revenue from their paid channels, his focus now is growing Directive’s own marketing.

You won’t want to miss this episode if you’re a marketer who’s looking to grow your own following or if you’re trying to start posting more creative content on your company’s LinkedIn page. We chat about how to approach figuring out the right mix of demand creation and demand capture programs for your business. Tim also shares common areas B2B marketers are wasting spend and how to identify and cut these programs immediately.

Show Notes

Follow Tara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taraarobertsonFollow Tim: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tadavidson41/

Check out Gaetano Nino DiNardi’s content: https://www.linkedin.com/in/officialg/

About Demand Gen ChatDemand Gen Chat is a Chili Piper podcast hosted by Tara Robertson. Join us as we sit down with B2B marketing leaders to hear about the latest tactics and campaigns that are driving pipeline and revenue. If you’re looking for tactical ways to improve your marketing, this podcast is for you!

Welcome back to a brand new episode of Demand and Chat. I'm your host Tara Robertson, and I have a fun guest for you today, Tim Davidson from Directive. Tim is the senior director of Digital Marketing at Directive and you've probably also seen some of his fun videos on LinkedIn or maybe TikTok if you're following him there. So Tim, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited, super excited. Awesome, me too. Yeah, it's always fun to talk to someone who not only knows their stuff when it comes to marketing, but knows how to make it entertaining, which I think people are trying to do a lot more in B two B, but it's kind of an uplo battle. Sometimes I'm curious to hear from you. Oh yeah, no, even in just like my last six months, there's being a big change in like edutainment. Um, yeah, it's funny. I feel like for a long time, at least from my perspective, entertainment kind of got a bad rap. Like people would say, I want to actually learn something. I don't want to be like edutaining. I want to get into the nitty gritty of things. That's really interesting. Yeah, exactly, the shift and like no, people want entertainment or they don't like say they want it, but they want it. You can help. I mean, yeah, it's it's social media, so it makes sense that they want to have some fun and not just learn. Um so you've been attracted for almost three years now, I'm curious just how your role has evolved, what you originally came in to do there, and what you're focusing on now. Yeah. Absolutely, um So. I actually I come from the B two C side. At one point that was gonna be the law law firm h VAC Marketing King of the world. Um that's actually quickly changed in to B two B. But I came in actually as the client side, so working with clients on basically anything with paid media, mostly Google ads, LinkedIn things like that. Um. As I started in, though I was eight percent of my time was on the client side internal and I quickly like the internal side of it where I was just working with sales lot of time and it's just a different dynamic. But being on the client side, so over the less the first two years, it's slowly changed from seventy and then now full time all this year, I've been just full time internal UM and now the director marketing and what that means. It's mostly still paid media UM, but also brand and however you wanted to find that. But I handle like all that social media. Try to make a lot more content. UM. My priorities are definitely evolved, UM, which I like. I like the evolution of things like that. Yeah, it sounds like you like to have your hands in a lot of things, which I'm kind of that kind of marketer too. I'm curious. I know a lot of the content you're making it looks like it's just you, at least the way that you're presenting it. But is there a team that you're working with internally on all of that or is it really just kind of a one man show. Yeah, so my content it's just me, and I go pretty far is to make it just me because I'm very I'm very, very embarrassed, Like I won't even feel in front of my wife like I'm very embarrassed in that way. So some of the skates I'll try to do as much as I'm possible where it's just me or the second person. Some of the more like directive content I will use a team like a video production or a freelancer or something like that to help with that production side of it. But all my videos it's all through the video or through my phone. Uh, I'm editing and all that. I have used freelancers for like subtitles and things like that. I'm trying to evolve my team. I guess you can say like personal brand team. We're gonna call it um, but it's mostly me. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I definitely feel you on the I don't want to say embarrassment, but it's almost like you feel kind of cringe e posting your own or making your own content sometimes where if I'm watching someone else is like when I...

...watch yours, I don't feel that cringe at all, But when I go to hit publish on my own, it's such a hurdle to get over. Um. Do you have any advice for people that are kind of new to the I guess creator like influencer space on just kind of getting over that and making it happen. Yeah, just do it. Uh sounds really like yeah, like you, like you said, you might cringe your content, but you won't cringe it other like you don't even think twice about the others. Everyone No one thinks twice. You put something out there and they might be like, oh, that's an okay video, but they're never gonna even remember so as you. But as you keep doing it, you'll get better at it and you'll get comfortable with it. So that's why my advice is always just start to be more like specific, put out like five to ten videos like on LinkedIn on any platform you are, and you'll get the feedback. If it's on LinkedIn, I'm we're ready positive feed Actually, if you don't get any feedback or it's gonna be positive feedback for people like you even know, they're not going to give you bad feedback anyway, unless he makes the the controversial obviously. Yeah, And I feel like it's funny because obviously the controversial or the Countrrian post on LinkedIn tend to do the best because they're just more interesting than someone who's kind of like medium agrees with everything. Um, but do you ever post anything where you're thinking after like, oh, that was maybe too far or maybe I should have held back a little bit on that one. Many a time, A lot of times when I post something about the B two B buying process, or like marketing or basically like marketing sales. Essentially, I posted a lot about the media buying process, and I would probably say I've had one post where half the comments were like from people in sales or people at different organizations that have that process that we're not happy with me, And it's funny how just the bad comments. I just get obsessed with those outside of that. For the most part, even salespeople are saying, yeah, this is actually the great, this is how we should be doing it, but we're not doing it because of X, Y and Z. So it's been interesting to see that. Um. I also say, but like you said, the ones that where I do get half not happy with it and half happy with it, you get a lot of views, you get a lot of engagement, and you get you learn a lot too. It's the comments are very interesting. You learn their perspectives and you can learn from that as well. It's just very interesting. Mm hmm. Yeah. I feel like it's tough because a lot of the time people that maybe they agree with it, but their boss doesn't, so they're nervous to post like, hey, I love this. I wish we could follow this process because it's LinkedIn right, So you're connected with your boss and your boss's boss. So Austin, I feel like that that was me. I would just not comment at all, but I guess some people just like to. We like to have the negative comments on every channel. Yeah, it depends. I feel comfortable enough where I could say something that goes against what you know, my organization says. But I also I'm not not in a bad way though. I always if I do do it, it's in a funny way because we have a good trust, so we have a good feedback loop together. I've also gotten d ms from people that said, I agree with that what you're talking about. I've tried that and I got written up for it. Obviously didn't want to put that on linked In, but you know, so to your point, they didn't want to put that out there because someone could see it. Some people just say, you know, this is the way it should be in They just want to make sure they they're not they don't want their team and maybe see it, or maybe they do. Maybe that is the reason they're commenting. Yeah, I guess sometimes you can just post hoping that your network sees it, or comment hoping that someone sees it and thinks like made it's a different way to look at this process. Um, you mentioned obviously like comments ms, but what are the main...

...metrics that you're looking at every either every day, every week for both your own platforms, and then I'm assuming you look at directives numbers as well. Yeah, so for me, I really it's probably I've looked at a lot of things because I do. I do look at engagement, impressions and following comment like that does stuff does matter? Because it doesn't. It is an indicator that things are working well, especially like on specific content. You can see those metrics and you can see what where do you get more engagement and the comments, and that guides what you want to make more content about. Ah for me to put the time and investment, and I spend money on it too. That the d M s I get that are like I want to make a video because of this, or I like your video on this, and they ask follow up questions about that. That stuff I love, right, and that that stuffs It does make me feel good, but also I know it's helping people, and I know I've been in the business world long enough where I know that stuff does correlate to some sort of r O I, whether it's feeling good about it or money or whatever it is, is always going to track. But there's also stuff where I can look at, you know, clients that we've had, or people that mention it, or customers they mentioned my content. I can look at that stuff. I don't not really worried about that. That suffs great and it's great to say I'm going in the right direction. But it's more about the stuff like the comments, the engagement, the things you see from people that the friends you make. I think that stuff is more. That's the stuff I have more to look at more. M I like that metric new friends. That's fine. Metric. Yes, here's this one sounds weird. I guess. I don't go to a lot of events. I'm trying to. But I went to one of them's a small event, and three people came up to me saying they've seen my content that I've never talked to before. That that was the solidification that I made friends because of that. It was that was just like, all right, why not keep going? There's no reason not to. Yeah, And to your point, like maybe those people didn't feel comfortable commenting for whatever reason on your videos. But they remembered you enough to come up and say hi and introduce themselves. So that's something for sure, even if you can't say you've got ten comments on this video and it led to this revenue. Yeah, do you have any advice for I feel like a lot of bat B marketers want to do this more fun content that we've been talking about, but either their exact team or their head marketing is just very stuck in, Hey, we just have to talk about our product all the time, and we have to talk about the very specific use cases maybe but not really straight without the lines of that, And how can they kind of push back on that and show, hey, we're never going to hit our goal as if first sticking in this very safe like product marketing message late. So I mean one way you could do it, and I personally in my videos I rarely talk about directive, if ever, but I do talk about the things that we would be the reason for something right or I do talk about things that I see in that our customers would resonate with. What you could do is actually basically test right one message. It's just talking about the product, you know, the classic just talk about it. Maybe some animations around it. It's just like, here's our product, here's what it does. This is why you can also try a different route. You could do like a TikTok style, a funny style. You can still use the same kind of messaging, but put it in a style that's entertainment and test that. But look at the metrics like engagement people mention it. Um You abviously don't want to look at like direct attribution to it because that's just not how it's going to work. But you can look at the comments engagement people that...

...mention it and say that sALS call it gone like you can listen to gong or chorus. That's probably the best way to do it. If if your exact team or your boss is saying, you know, we gotta stay down this route because it's just how we've always done it or this is what has worked. They think that's how it's worked. They just don't know the other side of it is testing them against each other, the other side of it, and if they don't want to listen, I mean truthfully, sometimes you gotta find the organization that's right for you UM or you gotta prove it out so you can test it and prove it out or alkay. So this is I've always I've tried to live by this, which is ask for forgiveness, not permission. So sometimes there is don't you know, walk the fine line. But sometimes you can try it out, see how it does, maybe spend your own money on it. I've ran ads or I spend my own money on it to see how it the engagement is, and then you could have that data to come back to it. That's sneaky, I like. But so you're using your own money basically to avoid going through like an approval process and just kind of getting it out the door to show those results. Is that I haven't passed. Yeah, Luckily you don't have to do that anymore. Yeah, but there is like like one reason thing was something it was like a mention to Blockbuster that was gonna be a funny thing. I haven't done anything with it, but I thought about messaging in my own end to see how it perform. Yeah, because they just you know, we just didn't go down that route. We didn't want to go down a Blockbuster route. Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that's pretty much every I mean, especially if you're reporting into a co founder of a startup. The way that we are. They're pretty much always open to testing and getting the data before they make a solid decision either way. So I would definitely agree with like, try to test it if you can. Maybe they won't be super sold until they see the numb bursts, and if you can prove that out then that's even better. Um. I feel like one other piece I'd love to touch on is obviously you have a lot of extensive background and paid search and paid social even before your time at Directive, But I'm curious if you've noticed anything changing recently with B two B. Obviously we're not the only ones that are trying out this whole entertainment space, but videos are just huge across all different channels now. Um So if you've noticed any changes maybe in the past year or two on just kind of what people are spending their budgets on and anything that you think people should maybe be looking at differently, Yeah, there's definitely been a big change and probably last year year and a half two years of obviously, like we mentioned, like entertainment so and it even goes back from like marks being measured on leads to pipeline revenue, so like the what we do and at the beginning has changed less e books and Google ads and paid social. It's less gated content. Uh, and it's more like education. There's been a big shift there and even like the videos, like you mentioned, there's a lot more videos. I think people have under are certain understand because of probably TikTok and Instagram and these later social platforms where you don't need a big production budget. You can take your phone because they're really good. They have great cameras. You can take camera from Amazon and put it on your computer and do a product demo. You can create videos without this big production value, which takes a lot less time, and you can make more so you can test more, you can make more things based off of what you're seeing. So I've seen a big shift there and I think it's working. We test TikTok style videos and ads and I think they worked better than the high production ones. I think it's very interesting thing to see in terms of like I think people should try. Your phones are really good cameras, just wry that you don't need the big production value. I think...

...you'd be interesting. It would be very interesting to see what happens. Yeah, I think there's so much you can do, like you said, with a phone, I mean, the new one just came out. It's even better. I don't have it yet, but my partner does and it's already like night and day better than mine. And I thought mine was great. It's just like it's always going to get better, and it's just so convenient and just the videos people are able to shoot out events now, it's crazy to see the quality that's coming out. Um. You did mention talk kind of moving away from leads and gated content. One of your posts that really stood out to me was you had a video on it was basically like a marketing team brainstorming new ideas, new campaigns, and then there's the one person in the room that's the how many leads will we get? Kind of person And for me personally, like that was me a couple of years ago, and I obviously it's kind of cringey to look at it now, but that was me being like, we have to prove our oy we need the leads, we need the forum fills. Um. So, I think I've seen the same shift as you where people are trying to move away from that, but at the same time we're now in this weird space where people want to do more creative things, but maybe their budgets are really tight right now, they're hiring is frozen, so they can't hire like again that video person maybe or the creatives. Um. So I'm curious if you're noticing that with customers that people are now kind of trying to move back to lead enforms and moving back to gated content, or if they're really kind of sticking to their guns and sticking with the more fun edutain any stuff that we've been talking about. Yeah, the truth is it really depends because there is some industries where demand capture you could spend a ton of money into paying demand capture and making a ton of money off of it because there isn't the sales force or Hubsbot's taken over the space of CRM, right there isn't the but there's a lot of demand for that that category. So there is some industries where we could spend tons of money on the demand capture areas and make a bunch back, which is all a tribute also makes it easier to do that. Right, then you spend x amount on your brand or demand creation content and where it's just like edutainment, and then you try to see overtime, what happens where do you have less demand in a category we are seeing we you know, for a lot of the clients we are seeing, you know, budgets either be cut or to stay the same while their goals increase, which is just craziness. Um, it's classic. But then there's also teams are getting smaller and again the goals are the same, so it doesn't make any sense. But you I wouldn't say they're completely going towards like legion forms or anything like that. I think they are just very ruthless on where they're spending their money. So like you can you can spend my demand creation and just find the area. Like yeah, it's not completely attributable, but like how did you hear about does fields or looking at those certain engagements people what people are talking about in like I think Gone Chorus has changed the game too, because you could hear what they're talking about in sales calls. You hear them talk about the podcast, talking about this video, this person at your company, your organic posts, so where you can track those back, they're just gonna keep them running. But things that like maybe I'm just using an example, it's not a real example. Read it that you have no ideas even working, and you're spending X amount of dollars on it at these times, you're just gonna cut that because you just don't know what's going on, and you spend it, you're just spread it then because your team smaller now. Anyway, Yeah, I think read it funny because we've been talking about that internally this month of like why aren't we doing anything on reddit um. But again, it's one of those channels where we're on so many channels already with paid and it is now the time to try something new that doesn't have direct attribution. We don't know for sure if it will work, So yeah, it's it's a tricky one. I like your idea of if it doesn't come up in a...

...gong or course call and you're not seeing it in your attribution software, then just heard it off, Like, I think that makes a ton of sense right now for marketers who are looking to either maybe they're like budgets cut or to your point, same budget but much higher goals, which a lot of marketers are used to. But it's battle for some of us. Yeah, it's it's and it's it's more about just squeezing on what's working and then and then using the extra time and budget on the thing and the test things. The however we want to describe them, the things that you think they could be something at some point, but you just don't know when you budgets are lower. Just there's no reason to do that or do a lot of those. Maybe one not three, right, Yeah, start with one. See if you get something out of its exactly. You mentioned a man capture, So I'm curious. Obviously, like pretty much every software company, we have demand capture ads running, but have you seen like a certain ratio that people are trying to stick their budget with of We know we need to build brand affinity top of funnel, and we also need the brand capture side. So how should we either be splitting budget or even just time and resources internally? Yeah, I hate, I hate this answer, but it's the truthful answer whatever for everything. Uh, it depends and you know how much demand there is, right, There's something like if you are only a CRM software for fintech, people don't search that, right rarely. You can do things around it. You can do like upload list or something like that, but people don't search that. So you have to. You can't spend all your money on You shouldn't spend all your money on the keywords or crum software just doesn't make sense. So when you're capturing those kind of things, it doesn't make sense ton of spend a ton of money there, So you want to spend more on the creation and paid social and things that are going to make create the demand. So the truthful answer is it depends. But I would probably say at a let's just say you do have there's a lot of demand for the category. I think a good rule of film is probably seventy if it's working obviously, right, like if if the working capture it hit your goals, and then you can graize the budget and then spend more there but also leave enough, like let's say, to create more demand for to capture. That makes sense, right, Yeah, No, that makes sense. I think I feel like people are always hesitant, at least I am too, to say it depends. But if you had just said, oh, it's always seventy, then I feel like I don't know if I believe to go into it with yeah, you need green assault, with every kind of marketing advice like that, right, Yeah, and you brought up the B two B buying experience as kind of like a controversial ish topic that you posted about. If I'm curious, you've worked with so many different companies now, um, why do you think so many B two B companies are stuck in that old model of fill out a form, wait for someone to call you, hope that they'll you'll pass their quiz of qualification, and then move on to actually see the product. They haven't evolved, and a lot of times I'll probably say it's just how it's been working, how it's been done because they just haven't involved. It makes the current process where it's like, you know, pill the demo, we're away for already hours when we reach out, Yeah, the str call or BDR what we want to call it, and they qualify you, then you go to a and then maybe a sales engineer. That worked when markets were measured on leads, because there'll just be tons of volume. You can't give them all the eight s and so the quality was also a lot lower, so it actually made sense to do the qualification. It also made more sense when you didn't have technology that can actually route you know, lead it's right if they say they are the VP of marketing...

...at in an enterprise account, don't send them to an STR You can figure that out with technology now where you can actually send them to a A So it made sense in the past. So people just like companies, just haven't evolved, or they have a big str team and they have to keep them doing stuff, or they don't enough as there were. It's just how their comp packages are set up. They just haven't adapted yet, or they're still measuring leads. So there is a big influx of companies coming to them, so they have to still have the qualification. M It sounds like a good problem to have in some ways, to have a big influx. Yeah, it does. I think it's usually like a low barrier for it to be a lead right in that case. Yeah, but even if you are doing that, the routing is where because you're gonna you're gonna see your clothes rates go up if you route the right people instead of making them fall off because they have to take three calls instead of two calls or one call. That using that technology is it's gonna be. It's gonna help even if you do have the high boy. Yeah, and when you say they are stuck in the past. Do you think it's like, is it the sales or usually the sales leadership, is it marketing both? What have you seen it? So it can be the sales leaders, but really it comes bound to whoever is calling it. So a lot of times it could be the founder CEO. If they say we're changing it, it'll change sales will have to listen, right, So either it's the sales leader or the CEO that wants to do it, or the foot founder or the CEO founder is out of it, they wash their hands with I'll let you deal with it, and then it's the sales leader or whoever set it up. Yeah, I think it's tricky because he's, like you said, if the founder is on boards, then it's getting done. Either way, it doesn't matter because on board it's happening. Um. But I think, at least from what I've seen to your point earlier, it've worked for Salesforce, it worked for a lot of these big companies way back when, and some people just want to still follow that playbook because hey, it worked when this A was at Salesforce. So let's stick with what we know and what works, and who cares if it's not the greatest experience for the customer. We just want to follow this playbook that we know. Yeah, and no won if you're Salesforce or house Spot and I don't know what house abouts processes now anymore or Salesforce, But if you're those companies that are very well known, you can probably do that because a lot of people most companies have Salesforce or houb Spot. We're both, so you could probably do that and get away with it. But the companies that are trying to innovate don't have that brand affinity. You need to change it up or if you are doing it, maybe it is still working. We just don't know what the upside is. Yeah, you don't know how much better it could be if you're only passing through the qualified. Yeah, that makes senn of sense. Cool. Um, is there anything else you've noticed obviously switching from kind of working with customers helping them hit your their goals to now having your own goals goals internally at directive just being on the other side of things, has anything just been standing out to you, whether on social or just what you're hearing from people. Yeah, so I won't go back to the client side. First. First thing, that to mention, I like the internal marketing part of it way better because I am able to work with sales. I am wea to work with products. It will work with a team, and I don't have to be siloed into the one thing that I know. Right, So, when I was on the client side, it was very hard to talk to sales people because they just thought we were the agency that was helping out the marketing team a lot of times. Also, I did find a lot of clients head there more Keney in sales...

...team did not get along because it could have been many different things, but it could be like they don't like their leads or you know, it's the classic, like all marketing leads are crap and ill doesn't know how to close, and you know, we're fighting for budget from the CEO. We're both reporting to the CEO, and we're not even working together on that because we have different goals. I found it very hard to do your job if you couldn't talk to sales, and that was kind of something I didn't like. There's a way to work around it and try, but like it was like it was really really hard to talk to anyone in sales because they just didn't want to talk to you, So the relationship was already kind of ring before you get in there and yeah and fix it. Do you think that's unique to directive that you're working so cross functionally or do you think that's just something that is more of an agency the style of working and that's what you like. Um. I think no. I think there's a lot of teams out there where it's they call themself the revenue team or a growth team, and there's a lot of alignment. I think a lot of people, there's been a lot of people that have mentioned they have great you know, marketing styles alignment. I think it's getting a lot better over the you know, the last couple of years. So I think you do see the evolution of that because it probably does stem down to marketing being measured on revenue and you need sales to close that right a way around it. Um. It probably also starts with the CEO. They are the founder. Again, they will if they want your team to work together, they will force it. Comes down if they don't want to, they don't care about it, and they want to measure you on different things, then they won't force it, and you're going to have that disalignment. Yeah, you'll be fighting every quarter someone's not hitting numbers. Yeah, it'll be someone else's fault. And when things are going well, everything's fine. If everyone's sitting their numbers, it's fine. But when things don't go well, you have budget getting cut, market's weird, that's when tensions start getting weird. Yeah, I'm curious if we'll see more teams either reporting to kind of one c r O and having marketing and sales ladder up to the same person, just because to your point, like times are pretty tough right now, they're getting tougher, So I'm curious if that will change either the structure or hopefully shifting more marketing teams to be working just more down funnel. Yeah, you do think so, you would think so. I'm hoping so. But we'll see. Um. Sometimes it's hard to make that shift, depending on how big you are on levels get to go through. Sometimes it came yard, Yeah, for sure. Do you have any other advice for I know we talked a lot about like content creation type of thing on the loan suicide. Do you have any advice for marketers that are looking to again moving away from lead capture just spending all their budget on demand capture and they know they need to grow their market. How can they kind of make that case? So their head of marketing they have goals like this month that they're supposed to be hitting, but they're trying to shift that mindset at the same time. Yeah, so if you have goals this month, it's gonna be tough. Um, depending on your sales cycle. If you have you know, maybe you have goals they have to hit for the quarter. Right. What you could do is like split it is like I wanna you know, half and budget is going to be in this kind of format where it's mostly demand capture and then half it's gonna be on like demand creation. And then you can see, you know, what the clothes rates look like, the pipeline, the leading metrics look like, and just see how that changes over time. Because it's a it's a long it's a longer process. You can't just look at it in a a month, two...

...months. You have to look it over three six months because sometimes you know it's gonna take three months for that to get in the groove of the man creation of figuring out what's working what's not. So it's kind of like making the case like I want to spend x amount of budget. Let's and seeing and then you can show over time, like what that looks like if you have hit it within your month. If you have to hit your goals within a month and you're let's say your show cycles listen a month, you need to look at like low hanging fruit like closed loss accounts. Um. There's a software there called user gems their whole premises like people that have you know, past customers and they were moved on to new companies. Like finding those people and doing it. You can to like make the case if you have hit something within a month, you would hanging fruit there. M So look for that local your fruit. While you're starting to think of ideas and ramp up maybe the brandiation side of things. Yeah, you're hitting your goals, it's a lot easier to make the case to spend more on the demand creation so you can optimize you know, your demand capture and even spend less hit the same goals because a lot of times it's when you waste in whatever platform, using anyway, if you can find that waste and spend it on demand creation to make the case that way, if you're just saying the same amount of budget. Your head of marketing is not going to hit get get on you if you're hitting. And when you say identifying that waste, is that are you talking paid search or is there a specific channel? But you see that happen a lot. Oh it's every channel. Um, but yeah, you know paid search. It could be keywords, it could be you're not using you know, like an offline conversion tracking, so you're tracking you know, the keyword level or search from level to actual pipeline revenue, like so salesforce data or helps about data and you see your i'm data or you know paid social. I've look at a lot of accounts. A lot of people are not targeting the right things. Targeting is just really bad or the creatives really bad, or it's not changed out ever, or you know, narrowing down on what's actually working. Because if you go into a a lot of LinkedIn ads or anything like that, or then you look in your sere um, you're gonna find certain industries, certain places where you of your revenues coming from. Narrow down in those, stop spending as much on the has not doing much, and then spend that on the demand creation. So it's pretty much any platform. It's just finding that those areas where you're you're just spending waste. And is that what you look at first, Like, say, I know you're not on the client side anymore, but when you were looking at clients accounts for the first time, were you just looking to find the waste first so that you could decide, Okay, we're wasting ten percent a budget, we can reinvest this elsewhere or what would be that first step when you're looking at a new client's accounts. Yeah, no, it's a it's a great question. Uh So, I think that it is probably either the basic stuff, so whether if it's like paid search, just making sure they're using the right mash types and they're using like offline conversion dracking, having having all the fundamental set up right, and most did not have them set up, so it's like well hanging fruit there. But then it's finding like where you're wasting money because then you can reinvest it, whether it's back into the channel because you're not spending appropriately in these areas, or it's a new channel. That's always the easiest way is finding the waste and spending new channel to prove that out and then you can keep going from there. Yeah, that makes sense. Reinvest the money that you were spending anyway, instead of asking for more money that you're just gonna possibly waste on the wrong targeting or wrong cue easier. Yeah, it's easier to make the case to say, hey, I saved us of the budget. It's usually a lot more than time percent, so it makes a lot easier. Nice. What range were you...

...seeing when you were working with customers of like that was that low hanging fruit of like we should just pause this right now or stop spending it's um, yeah, it's a lot. Some of it was some and it's not. It's not really the the company's fault. A lot of times it was just that it's not their expertise. You have a marketing manager or marketing director who's trying to do everything right, and that's that's a problem. You're spread thin. That's not their expertise. It's something they're managing, they're handling. But it's just they're also trying to do events, they're trying to do all these other things and they don't have the time. And that's why they hire an agency. That's why they do. They look for something because they don't have the expertise in house because they're trying to do too many things, or if they do have the expertise, they're just spread. Then yeah, I think it's tough when I mean almost everything I've been on has felt spread them even if we're hiring, even if we have to twenty people, there's just there's new there's always new channels, there's an event we want to sponsor. It's it's constant, right, So yeah, it's good advice to have some outside eyes and outside perspective on your accounts. Great have been crazy. Sorry our events you chill, Piper, But I'm noticing party theme in LinkedIn. It's uh, it's very interesting. Yeah, it trickles down from our founders. I think they like to party. It helps. Um, I haven't been either, but yeah, and maybe next event season I'll be out of few. We've been trying to What I've been actually thinking about, because I manage our paid accounts, is how can we amplify some of that fun content that they've been creating on the ground. And again, I'm just one person, so it's tough to walk my week to do that kind of thing. But there's so much lowering you frouit there just really cool videos they're creating and stuff on the floor. Oh, I bet you guys really interesting content there. I've seen Arthur's stuff. You probably have so much you could do that. Did you see his red hot chili piper thing at the Yeah, that was my favorite. We were all laughing about that this morning. Yeah, I have to do something with that. I need to figure it out. But did you You didn't you didn't hire a red chat had red Hot Chili pipers? Dream forced that right? Or did you? Dream Force just happened to pick up this year as the Yeah, that's out of our budgets that would see our probably, Um, but we had to jump on it because it's just too perfect the one year. We haven't been to dream Force really before, so it was great timing for us. That's perfect cool. Um, Well, I'd love to move on to just our quick fire around. So a couple of quick questions for you that we can get through. So, is there any other marketer that you followed that our listeners should go follow or read their content? Yeah? So there's always the classics of your Dave Gerhart. I think one I really like it doesn't post as much as he used too, is Gettano de Nardi s c O background VP of growth it or at one point. Um, but he's got really good I like his takes on things really good, really interesting. Nice. We'll put his link in the show notes. People can go follow him and check him out. And is there an under the radar channel or could be a tactic but you're checking out or that your team is really investigating right now, I think I'm trying to figure out TikTok organic, yes, but also the paid side. The targeting is not that good, but there is ways that I'm looking at it right now. Um, I think there's a lot of opportunity there. But again, the content really matters to you know, just creating TikTok style content, entertainment, and then the advertising part. But TikTok I think is going to be a really interesting one for me. Two be nice. See I'd love to see if you find out anything on the targeting side, please post about it, because we're starting to dip our toes. But it makes me...

...so nervous. The targeting options are just so broad and I don't trust it yet, so I'm hesitant there. Yeah they are, but yeah, I'm trying to figure it out. Too cool. And lastly, where can we go to follow you? I know you're obviously on TikTok and LinkedIn to right. Yep, Lincoln and TikTok are the biggest um among the other ones too, but really LinkedIn and TikTok the best place to defind me. Great. Thanks so much Tim for joining me today. Thank you, This is awesome. Great thanks everyone for listening. We'll be back in two weeks with the brand new episode.

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