Demand Gen Chat
Demand Gen Chat

Season 3, Episode 11 · 3 months ago

Building a revenue-driven marketing team & why taking big swings is more important in tough times | Colin White @ Clearbit

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this new episode of Demand Gen Chat, I spoke with Colin White, Head of Demand Generation at Clearbit. Colin’s career started in software development and he pivoted into marketing, where he’s focused on driving revenue growth.

If you’re a marketer focused on driving top-of-funnel leads and looking to have an impact further down the funnel you won’t want to miss this episode. We chat about how Colin approaches setting KPIs for individuals on his team (including Marketing Ops), and how to prioritize program ideas for the highest impact. Colin also shares how his team at Clearbit balances the science and ‘gut feel’ of marketing to set and achieve their goals.

Show Notes

Follow Tara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taraarobertson

Follow Colin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maybecolin/

Check out Nick Bennett’s content: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickbennett1/

About Demand Gen ChatDemand Gen Chat is a Chili Piper podcast hosted by Tara Robertson. Join us as we sit down with B2B marketing leaders to hear about the latest tactics and campaigns that are driving pipeline and revenue. If you’re looking for tactical ways to improve your marketing, this podcast is for you!

Welcome back to a brand new episode of Demand and Chat. I'm your host Tara Robertson, and I have a great guest for you today, our friend Colin. Colin White is the director of Demand Generation at clear Bit. Colin, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me, Tara, thanks so much for joining. We were just catching up because we actually recorded this a few months ago. I had some audio issues happening in the background, so we're catching up all over again, which is always a great excuse to do, so absolutely. Yeah. So how long have you been at clear but now? Um, I think it's been two and a half years at least. I roll up on my third year in March. Wow, coming up on that. That's a big anniversary. That's exciting. Yeah it is. Yeah, it's I mean, it's a long time in in SAS SAS marketing, especially usually ten years of pretty short Yeah, definitely true, especially in marketing. I'd love to hear. I mean, obviously, I'm sure your role has evolved since you've been there, But what are the main KPIs that you're responsible for right now and that your team is working on. Yeah. Um, yes, the role has changed a lot. I joined as an IC and now UM run the demand gen team here UM. And it's funny the metrics, I mean, they've changed slightly over the years. Generally they're they're the same UM. We report on, you know, ess a O S, sales accepted opportunities and the pipeline generated out of those. The way those have been defined over the past couple of years are a little bit different, but UM, it's essentially been the same since I started UM. And then the other sort of leading indicator is the number of UM you know in UM quality leads or i c P leads we have from you know, accounts that we score well. Yeah, and we'll get into leads scaring in a little bit, so I'll save my questions around that. UM. But I'm curious. We're obviously heading into Q four and a little bit here, so how do you as a team decide these are key metrics? Are these are the KPI is that we really want to focus on or is it always those sales accepted ops and qualified ops? UM usually always the same, and so we share we share that metric with our our sales org on the SDR and b d R side too, so we're sort of both gold towards creating pipeline and opportunities for the account exact team on the new business side. Um, so those are changing, but the things that make up that number do change, you know, based on what we're investing in, whether that's a specific type of content or education, or if it's you know, an investment, a new investment in you know, in person events or something like that. The makeup of the goal changes, um as we go on. And then you know, if we're rolling out a new like a brand new program, will make a judgment call on on how much makeup of that number it'll you know, it'll take. But um, you know, sometimes that's...

...just a gut feel guests on the marketing side, and there's sort of this um, you know, I don't know what to call it science and not science between you know, how we're thinking about our goals and how the revenue Operations and Finance team is thinking about our goals. Right, they're very very specific and like the makeup of the goal, and we're sort of a little bit you know, we still forecast, we do all those things, but we're a little bit more feeling in terms of how you know, as marketers we are we are a little bit more on the gut feeling side sometimes UM with where we'll make up the goal. But when we look at like the success of marketing overall, it still ends up being that overall you know, pipeline or essay o number driven from marketing UM, but sort of the makeup of how we get there. Yes, Rob upsets that at at the outset, but it doesn't matter if we, you know, have ten percent more over here versus ten percent less over there. As long as we hit that overall goal, everyone is very happy, right mm hmm. Yeah. I think a lot of marketers talk about that as kind of the making bets part of marketing, where if we if we listen to everything the Revolts folks had to say, maybe we'd had our targets, but we wouldn't take those big swings. So we kind of have to think outside the box sometimes. Yeah, And it can be hard taking the big swings too, especially when you're under pressure to produce right and and you know, we're forecasting out of um what's worked in the past, and then telling our Revolts team and our finance team, like, look, we think will produce this when we invest this amount of money here UM. But again, like you said, that's only going to get you almost a linear and not even linear because you know, return usually diminishes as you go in a specific program or a specific way of UM marketing. UM. So you have to try and take those big bets. But it can be hard, UM. And honestly, you know, again being here for a couple of years, especially through the pandemic and COVID and now we're sort of in a market downturn, UM, it can be even harder to decide to take those swings. And we've gone through periods where we didn't, right, and you can you can tell growth stagnates when that happens. Essentially, yeah, we're more budget goes less far, you know, because returns do diminish, especially in digital advertising. So that's that's the thing, UM. And we're actually it's funny because our Q four starts at the beginning of November, so we're now going through this process of like, okay, what are the big bets, right, what are we actually going to try and push that's new and you know, innovative for our team versus what is that you know, stable sort of stepped approach, UM. So we're trying to figure out both right now and is there anything that you've seen a clear bit or maybe something you do yourself that helps the team kind of? I guess it's feel safe to bring those big bet type of ideas because...

I can. I've definitely been on marketing teams where it felt very much like we were told that we wanted big, crazy ideas, but then those ideas of get shot down once you're actually in that meeting, right, So how do you create that kind of safe environment for the team. Yeah, that's a really good question, and to be honest, I think we've we've missed a little bit of it the past little while. Um where again, like you know what, market downturn, COVID, all that stuff makes you feel like you have this financial obligation to like be very sturdy and structured with everything, and so it can be it can be really hard. I think that the ideation and you know, sort of innovation culture on a marketing team is is really important. Um. We do go through a process which I think helps in in a lot of ways, UM called ice scoring, especially around you know, planning time. So concept being you throw like any idea at the wall, not an idea like you know, it should be formed and have have some opinion and maybe some data act insight, and even if it doesn't have data act insight, like you know, a really good feeling, um. And then as a team, we take all those ideas and we score it on impact, confidence, and ease um. And with those three sort of metrics on a you know, on a slider, we can look at what the overall score output is and get a sense of you know, okay, where where should we invest. And sometimes it comes out that, you know, a really high score will have huge impact, but um, it would be really hard and that score comes out on top still because the impact could be so high. And if we're all voting as a team, like it ends up sort of being a democracy, right because you're voting as as a team, and if the score comes out on top, that means the entire team believes in it, right and if you're exactly so, so we'll we'll take all of the ideas, put them in a spreadsheet, row by row, and then each individual on the team will go and vote on impact, confidence, and ease um, and then we'll basically average those those numbers, those scores, and get the output from sort of the democratized voting system. Um, and you know that. I think the other big thing with it is if the entire team believes in something which really you can get out of this. Um. Everyone's sort of involved and passionate about making it work too. So it's not just like, hey, you know, I'm your boss, I told you to do the thing. Here's the list of things I came up with them all. Um, it's it's a voting system, so everyone's involved in planning as well. Yeah. I like that. Yeah, we're starting to do that with our mostly just on the CERO side, to prioritize experiments because I find it's one of the easiest ways that people...

...have so many ideas without realizing like maybe we shouldn't test every single thing because the impact it's not always going to be there. Yeah, so it is. It is really hard sometimes to score things that are are so new or so different um on the team, or things that are sort of very abstract, you know you're talking about how c r O, you know, conversion rate anything is a little bit easier because there are a ton of ideas and then you sort of whittle them down based on what you believe the impact is going to be UM. But with something like an event or a trade show, it's sort of this big, airy, confusing item. And it's also hard for the entire team to like rock the information about the event and understand why we would want to make the investment and then make those calls. And so sometimes it's it's funny. As the team has grown on the marketing side, we I'll say this, we used to ice score amongst the entire team. Now it might just be subsets of team members who have sort of like the same general theme of responsibility. UM. So it might not be the entire team, you know, like we might not have field marketing UM way in on conversion rate optimization, but we'll have our web developer and a performance marketer and our marketing operations UM, you know person go and measure in input on sorrow right, And so it's sort of become subgroupings as we've Yeah, as we've grown. Yeah, I think that's a natural way to do it. I Mean, the last thing you want is the whole marketing team having to score like trade show should we go to next year? You know, it ends up being a lot a lot of ideas. UM. Overall, it's not just like the thirty that we had, uh, and thirties still a lot, but I remember like in or something, we had something like thirty that we were scoring um and reading and understanding like all of the concepts. So it was a lot um. But it does work. I think it works really well for smaller teams. Yeah, that makes ton of sense. And how do I know you guys talk a lot and just like your content in general, about things like your TAM and just figuring out how big your market is, establishing your i c P s, how do those fit into your ICE framework? Is at all? Or is that more of the person running that program has to consider these things? Um? Yeah, I think it's it's more foundational than anything. So you know, when we're when we're thinking about any new concept or idea or thing to prioritize, we're always thinking about it in in the sense of like, you know, how does this work within our ideal customer profile? Or you know, what is the purpose? Will this engage more of our market or will this you know, educate folks who already know about clear bit who are in our I c P. It's just a frame of reference instead of something you're sort of thinking about...

...with ideating, right. Um So, like an example might be on going that trade shour event route. You know, we might ask like, hey, we're looking for like these five criteria points because they, you know, define our I c P. Can you tell me what percentage of the normal attendees or registrants might be in that grouping? Right? And then we can start to understand like, okay, well how many how many people will we actually interact with who fit our I c P versus not? Right, It's it's a different frame of reference around essentially targeting when it comes to something like c R O it you know, a little bit less unless you're talking about sort of the personalization and where you might want to personalize for subsets of your I c P so that you increase conversion rates for them. But again, it gives you a frame of reference to really think about what you're doing. Right. It's not increased conversion rate for everybody. It's increased conversion rate for the people you care about, right, and that can be drastically different. Yes, you know, we get a lot of web traffic, but a lot of it is not people we actually want to sell to, um or or even who could buy our product. And implement it well and get value. Um So we're sort of always framing what we're doing based on that versus Yeah, like individually per project thinking about it. Yeah, and when you when you think about that, I don't even know what to call it. I don't want to say unqualified traffic because that sounds bad. But that group of traffic that everybody gets, that's people, say, job hunting, it's students poking rounder site. It's people that are maybe at a two person startup who just aren't ready for your tool. How do you think about kind of excluding those people from your experiments when you're doing something like zero, Do you guys have a process for that? Um? Yes and no for some things, yes, But a lot of a lot of what we actually end up looking at is, you know, did it conver did whatever we just did convert to a qualified lead? Right? So when we're looking like, we don't ever really talk about our all lead number or form film number or anything like that. We're only talking about qualified so folks that we consider, you know, would that would be able to buy our product essentially if it are I c um So, when we're talking about like experiment lift or anything like that, we're talking about lift on I c P number, not lift on lead number, and it's it's only one step further in the qualification process, but it's a valuable step because you know, like essentially, I think it's right now, around fifty of our overall leads are actually qualified, right, so you're kind of missing out on those essentially. Yeah, but if you...

...made a call on a test based on those forty percent, exactly, yeah, exactly, you know, so I can give you it can give you false positives, um when you shouldn't have them. So yeah, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like a lot of people I talked to her in that boat where they want to do more zero they want to test things, but they're just kind of just starting to do things like traffic exclusions and yeah, yeah, and we are lucky, like our our product allows for a lot of that. You know, we have you know, I P look up as a product clear reveal, and so we can sort of exclude folks that we can identify that don't fit our I c P M in the test, or we can sort of just remove those out of any conversions that we actually do track on the website, right M Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I know we were talking a little bit about kind of just Q four planing in general. But I'm curious now that you're leading a team, how do you help or maybe it's top down, but I don't think it is, But how do you help the individuals and our team kind of set goals and okay, ours targets whatever you want to call them, that actually like they can impact on the individual level. Um, I mean it is a little bit tops down, like I think it's sort of I mean it has to be when we talk about like our essay O or pipeline goal. Um. You know that is coming from finance with a little bit of song and dance from us saying like, well, you know, we forecast that we can hit what you told us that you need and like is there any flexibility there? Like you know, it's the song and dance of of uh forecasting and goal setting from their side. Um. So, firstly, I try to make sure that every person has a goal that can roll into like pipeline that's very important. UM. So either like a person is owning um like a program, like a whole program where they would have a pipeline number so you know, we expect X from hy UM or in the case of something like c r O or marketing operations, they have projects UM or metrics that roll up into those numbers, and maybe talking about like marketing ops is an interesting UM want to pick on because it can be hard to put sort of a number against their role. But as an example, right now, um merce on our team is working on updating our scoring models and both simplifying and making them easy to understand, but then also UM focusing on making sure that we're getting the most out of how we score right. So UM when he looks at his UM you know, objectives and and krs, he's saying, like, you know, this project that I'm working on, which is a big hefty thing scoring, UM, how can I impact pipeline out of scoring right? And he's now taken...

...the approach of, you know, we're going to make sure we have our core model and then the ones that are sort of taking the fringe folks and making sure that we're at least thinking about the fringe, the fringe people that might not be perfectly in our I c P but have elements of that, and you know, getting those into the system so that we can actually engage with them and talk with them correctly. UM, and overall that's going to increase the amount of qualified leads that the SDRs and BDR has talked to and overall increased pipeline right, And so his he ends up having a metric that is tied directly to it UM. Although some of the krs are still going to be like backlog project completion rate or whatever. You have to work through some stuff and ops, it's just like yeah, exactly exactly, but if you have at least one care that rolls into sort of that key metric for the entire team, I think that's sort of one important factor cross everybody. Yeah, you're right if that's a tough role where I feel like it ends up being a to do list a lot of the time when yeah, it's like that, yeah, it's how to how to make it not a to do list is very difficult, But I think it's the sort of the big swing projects that make it not. So it is something big and harry to focus on that does have impact overall, and you can see it very easily versus like, you know, I did ten backlog projects that increased productivity on the marketing team by five, and you know that's not as easy to understand. Mm hmm, Yeah, that totally makes sense to make them especially it's one of those roles I know you mentioned turnover earlier, just really quickly, but it's a crucial role on the team that you don't want them going anywhere, So to give them really important projects that everybody can get excited about is even more important. Yeah, the institutional knowledge that a marketing OPS person holds is um And then and I know that I was marketing ops prior to doing demand gen and I know when I like, I spent two weeks just trying to write documents whenever I left a company because all of the processes were in my head, which is, you know, bad documentation on my end. But also that's just what it happens when it's one person. When it's one person and you're at a startup and you're trying to do all the things, and yeah, so it is it is very hard. Um, So make your marketing ops folks happy, everybody. Yeah, we actually just hired We just hired our first marketing ops which is a little bit crazy, but I'm realizing how much is in my head too. You just don't take it for granted, the things you just do right totally. Yeah, we held off on Marketing OPS two for quite a long time. Um Merce who's on on the team now, he started just back in March, um And you know, it went just two years of my life here without marketing ops and even longer before that. And we were quite a large team before we had the...

...function. But um, yeah, it's a tough it's a tough one for sure. And how did you manage things like lead scoring without marketing ots because that's my area that we've just kind of very simplified and not worried about up until now. Because again, small team. Yeah, we we were in a we were in a special position. We had three people and we still have a bunch of people on the team who are X marketing operations have gone on to do other other work. So while we didn't have an official person, we sort of all bendid band aided the entire system together as like a second job, and we had, you know, three people do separate pieces of the function. Um Honestly, that was like maybe a mistake one because it took us a long time to actually do the work right because we weren't involved in it all the time. UM. And then two, because it was three people, like, things weren't perfectly aligned across all the systems and it did become a pain. But yeah, so we were in a very lucky position. Um. And then secondly I'll call out we use um a company called mad Kudu which does machine learning based scoring models, and so they have you know, a great support team, um CS team and consulting team that we use a lot UM. So yeah, that that that helped out from our end UM so that we didn't have to manually create the rule set and sort of constantly be tweaking. And honestly, like, I don't really believe in creating a manual lead scoring system. I think human bias has too much impact and how you set stuff up, UM, So you're using yeah, machines to do it. It's probably the best way. UM. And actually it's funny I say that because now we have a mix of both. The model that Immersed worked on this past quarter was half human half machine based. So like, we set some rule especially for new segments that we're going after that we haven't historically you know, either done well in or even engaged with and then also the model picks up sort of the the rest that we miss as a manually made scoring model. I'm curious how that will perform for you, because I feel like that context that a human provides is obviously super important. But I also see your point on like the biases could be yes, and it's to be to be clear to like, we only score out of that system on the like company or contact quality. We don't score based on the engagement they've had with us, UM, and so we use we use people to do that part, like when should I engage this person? It's the person's choice essentially, which works and also has challenges. It's a lot of education for for the team UM. But the scoring model is really just looking at like is this company a good fit? Or how good of a fit is this company based on historics? How good of a contact is...

...this based on historics, and then gives us sort of like a prioritization model from the quality perspective, but not from the activity or engagement perspective, like a normal m quel might. Gotcha, Yeah, I feel like that's where the biases can really come in is when I'm running programs that I'm also setting engagement scoring. You can be this event. This event was really important, Like it was really really important. It's just I worked a really hard time on this landing page. It is worth it guarantee plus ten points for the space exactly. So there is something to be said about having like if you are rolling out an engagement scoring model, having someone like marketing ops who again, humans are biased, but they're not as biased as like the person running the programs that you're ving. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the other like if if your OPS team or person individual is the person owning it and they don't own the programs there, I mean they're in it to make the best version of the model or the best version of the system um and to produce the most pipeline out of what they have, most productivity out of what they have. So yeah, if you if you're just like a demand gen marketer taking your score up and passing it to sales being like, look at all my great leads, uh like maybe not the best. Yeah, that's the problem that startups. I feel like you end up doing both roles a lot of the time. And then we thought's why a lot of us have said, like we'll lead scoring isn't working for me because yeah, liking my exact experience in pastor roles. Yeah, it's funny, like the mqell is dead sort of talk track. Um, I don't think the m q all is dead necessarily, you're going to call it something else. It's just that we've used m QUEL poorly as marketers for a long time because we've created these manually biased scoring models that say this is an m QUEL when maybe it actually isn't right, And then when you're the sales repan has to call that person they don't agree that they're in a queus or like exactly exactly. So just swishing gears a little bit I'd love to chat about. Obviously, you have a lot of experience on the paid social side, just paid ads in general. Um, a lot of us have been talking about just budgets being tighter right now. Hopefully it's a short term thing, but no one really knows. Is there anything you're seeing that's maybe promising and all of this. I feel like there's a lot of bad news going around right now, so I'm trying to find trying to find that yeah exactly, Yeah, Um, Honestly, for us, at least the clear bit side, things haven't changed that drastically UM for us. I think, you know, the summer was a little bit tough UM overall. I think sort of everybody felt that in some way, shape or form UM, but partially because we measure are marketing team up...

...against UM, you know, pipeline generation overall versus individual campaign performance. UM. That ends up helping a lot. So we're not actually looking at like, you know, the success of one Google ad campaign. We're looking at the success of the marketing budget up against the overall marketing generated pipeline, even from organic and direct and all of the you know, non attributable UM. So that ends up helping us a lot when we look at performance. So nothing really to call out. Unfortunately, on my side, I'd say it's almost normal for us. I mean, I feel like it's so it's a good thing. I will say that, you know, conversion rates have dropped. It is definitely harder to connect with folks like book meetings from any source, not just you know, ones that are a little bit more peripheral and not a hand raise even and hand raises we found, you know, like demo requests have been harder to connect with UM, and it just feels like people are sort of tire kicking a little bit um when they're browsing software now, or it takes a lot more for someone to actually engage because they know what's going to go to their CFO right there. It's not just going to their you know, their boss or their manager. It's going all the way up the chain. Um. Even myself, I felt that, you know, some of our processes have changed and now there's a few more layers of approval, and I'm more wary on you know, well what you know, what do I request or even how do I position this request? Um, Like I need to make sure that everything is dialed in a little bit more, even even if we're reporting at the overall number. Um, Like finance is just a little bit more tough today, which you know isn't a bad thing overall. It's just makes a little bit more work for me than you know, a year ago. But yeah, that's fair, I mean, that's not that's not all that I think. I think being careful with the tools we buy can help in the law run, obviously, because you don't end up with like a very bloated We've spent a long time paring down our tools over the past year. Like we were bloated a year and a half ago and we've like, yeah, we still buy sometimes duplicates we don't even know it, uh, and finances and it's not across different teams that you're buying the duplicates, and it's across market just marketing. Uh still but it's because you know, clear, it's been around for quite a long time. We've had team transitions, new people coming in, people leaving, you never know, right, Um, So that that's sort of been a process for us. Speaking of marketing ops too, it's been something that they've been trying to do. It's like, you know, do we need sm rush and a TrEPS or can we just use one one? You know? Yeah, but it's like this one person on the team preferred this tool, but they're not exactly or like you got one extra metric out of the other tools,...

...so you bought it anyway and you don't even use it anymore. But that was the original reason and sort of everyone's afraid to turn it off because I don't know what I don't know what it works on. Sorry my hand, my hand gestures of sorry for everyone listening to just the audio. But I'm worried. Yeah, I'm curious because you mentioned events a little bit earlier too, But how is event follow up going for you guys? Did you attend any of the big ones last month or in September? I should say, yeah, it's funny. We so we did. Um, we actually sponsored a bunch of stuff with y'all at Chili Piper um and so far so good. Um, you know, it's funny. It was our first time being out in person, I think even since I joined, and I will you know, I joined a week before COVID essentially hit the States. Um, you know, like borders lockdown on day seven for me or something. Um, So it's been funny going going there. Uh. Overall, so far, so good, you know. For us, I think it's more about brand recognition now than um, you know, driving direct meetings out of a lot of these things, especially when you consider it's like something like an after hours party or something like that. Um, it's not necessarily about booking meetings. One interesting insight that I had is that, like we ended up having a lot of people just yell across the conference room floor brutting that in quotes because a lot of these are outside uh, just noticing our logo, and it's not something you feel online. You don't feel like you know the person coming up and be like, oh my god, you know I'm a I'm a customer, I'm a user, or I love your product. I've used you at three of my last jobs, and I buy you. You're the first tool that that I buy when I join UM. You don't feel that online. It's very hard even through like listening to Gone calls, everyone's in there little like zoom box, uh, and no one's excited about it anything. So that's that's one tidbit that across our whole team felt very very good, right because it's you just you feel it a little bit more than on zoom. Yeah. I believe that we I couldn't make it out to any events this year unfortunately, UM. But we actually had a lot of great video content come out of it, which was a lot of it was honestly just organic, which I don't know if it across that way, but a lot of it was what you're saying. A customer would walk by or someone who likes us would walk by and we'd be like, can you repeat that on camera? Can you say that again? And I think because people are just anxious and and just be out of the house and happy to be with people. People were so willing to be on camera and to do that stuff. It surprised me, honestly. I don't know that I would have been as eager to do that if I was just walking by. Just yeah, just even to come over and chat everyone eXeem very happy. Yeah. I...

I did UM one of our booths in San Francisco, and like being the demand Gen team, uh and then obviously selling to a lot of demand Gen folks. Clear bit having customers come up and we just talked shop. Everyone was very like, very into just coming over and talking instead of you know, the normal like sales pitch at a booth or something. UM. But yeah, it was a lot of fun from from my end, just hearing from folks out in the wild who are excited about the company I work at. UM. Yeah, it's a good feeling. Yeah, that's nice to come home with those feelings. Must feel really good. Yeah, exactly. It definitely re ups, the reups the energy. I would say, yeah, and have you had any challenges kind of I don't want to say justifying, but kind of proving out the r O I of these events knowing that for again to your point, a lot of them, you're not going to come home with hundreds of meetings booked, but they cost as much as booking under meetings online maybe, So how do you kind of reconcile that when it comes to planning? And yeah, kind of, Um, well we'll see, because we just did our first bunch of them in September, so we're yeah, we're still we're still waiting at a hot minute to do the official reporting on them. But the initial parts of some of this, um, we're really that like the talk track and and honestly, the experience was that we we got to talk to people who probably would never fill out a form and raise their hand, you know, like either at big companies or at current customers where they have five different product lines and you know, they've seen our name in their master data system, big warehouse thing, but they've just never been able to ask or figure out how the product is used. And so it was a much less um it was a much more frictionless way for them to come and engage in a conversation around like what is clear bit um at sort of these really important logos for us really important companies. UM. And we just know that they would never they probably never fill out a form, right, And we also know that because we just don't get them a requests from the company at all. Right. Yeah, there's some big ones that you're just never going to see them telling. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh Like just just being able to to talk to someone at the organization is a big deal for some of our sales team. Um. And then the other thing that we've done is, um, yeah, really just engage the sales team afterwards and sort of bring their stories forward in terms of you know, maybe this isn't direct r O I, but hey, you know I I talked to three prospects who are in open conversations and you know, I was able to move two deals forward. Um. And that's never going to show up or it'll barely show up in an influence report or something like that. But every deal matters and it's really important, um. And it could be the key the key thing that pushed it over the line. And...

...so hearing the stories from the sales folks that were at these events are some of the more important things too that we're trying to promote while we sort of wait on that influenced number or you know the other metrics that we're looking at for these events. Um, but those are those are some of the ways that we're thinking about it, at least on our side, especially when it comes to like, yeah, off trade show floor type stuff. Right. Yeah, No, I think that's great feedback, especially if you can get the sales team to sing the praises of an event, because marketing can say all day like, oh we talked to all these great companies, but for a sales rep to do that goes even further. So that's a great way. Exactly, Yeah, exactly. Cool. Great, Well, I'm just going to move on to our quick fireund so just a couple of more questions for you, con and or're running short on time, and so first, is there another marketer you follow that our listeners should go check out and give them a follow them? Yeah, I'll call it Nick Bennett at Alice. Because we've been doing these events, he is definitely an awesome event marketer UM and doing even more now. So definitely have been following along with him and chatted with him a couple of times about it while we move into doing these Yeah, great, And is there an under the radar channel or could be a tactic that your team is either loving right now or just kind of starting to play around with. Oh yeah, when we originally did this, because we're rerecording, I think I said webinars. I think I said webinars virtual events, if you will, Um, I still think that they can work. Though the summer had a lull and we're just starting to kick back up, but we were driving a lot of pipeline, honestly out of webinar, live webinars, not even on demand or anything like that. So um, I'm still going to use that as my answer. I think webinars webinars are not dead and they are definitely alive and and producing great. And lastly, where can we go to follow you? What channels are you most act one? Yeah? I am not an active social media anything, but if you do want to follow me, Lincoln is the best. Just search Colin White clear bit and you'll find me. Um, it's probably the best way to do it. And I'm sure that the link will be in the pro the description of the podcast, so yeah, yeah, it'll be in there, don't worry, And we'll link for nix to just in case people aren't following him, but I'm sure most people yes, yes, he's everywhere right now. Yeah. Yeah cool. Well, thanks so much for joining me, Colin. Yeah, thanks for having me, Taraut. It was great to chat, and thanks everybody for listening. We'll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode.

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